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Post by gambler on Apr 12, 2012 18:39:40 GMT -5
So we seemed to get sidetracked in another thread and get onto this topic. So here it is for all the Manning homers Manning: 54,828yards 399TDs 1 superbowl 8-9 postseason First up for comparison is #4 Brett Favre Favre: 71,838yards 508TDs 1 superbowl 13-11 postseason Favre Holds just about every major career passing record in the NFL. Manning is still playing but will need a minor miracle to ever get close and certainly isn't close at the time of this post. On stats alone Brett win. Superbowls are a wash. Much like Ripken in baseball, his legacy is enhanced by his mammoth 297 consecutive games started streak. Something I truly don't believe we will ever see again. Favre also didn't choke as often in the playoffs like Manning (who was a better regular season QB then a playoff one). Next up #12 Tom Brady Brady: 39,979yards 300TDs 3 superbowls 16-5 postseason Brady could be called the anti-manning. While Manning is at his best in the regular season, Tom Terrific shines in the post season. In his 10 seasons, he's led his team to the Superbowl in half of them. He's just a flat out clutch winner. He's also shown that when called on he can put up crazy stats. He holds the NFL record for most TDs in a season (50). His 2007 season of 4806y 50TD will go down as one of the best ever (though his 2011 year of 5235yard 39TD isn't far back). It comes down to what you judge on here. If you want raw compiler numbers then Manning has the Edge. If you want a Winner who doesn't make mistakes or choke when it counts, you go Brady (third best int ratio in NFL history). Last is Joe Montana Montana: 40,551yards 273TDs 4 superbowls 16-7 postseason Joe Cool is a lot like Brady. They are winners when it counts. Montana's 4 superbowls and stealer 16-7 record in the playoffs lead many to consider him the best QB ever. He still holds the record for postseason TDs (45) and is second in passing yards to Warner (5772). Again, if you view excellence as how a player performs when it counts, Joe wins. It's interesting to note that Manning is the only one of the four with a losing postseason record. He has the weakest postseason position of any of the four period. So there's my 2cent analysis. It stumps me at times how Manning gets so much respect while not performing as well as his contemporaries. But much like fantasy football values, perception is 9/10s of the game.
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Post by Jaysports on Apr 12, 2012 19:04:53 GMT -5
This sounds to me like Manning is a top-5 QB for sure, I wouldn't say #1 as I've already said Elway in another thread poll (Bronco homer). ;D Favre and Manning are very similar to me, both have big regular season stats, Peyton would've been and could still get there. They both have a SB win and a SB loss. Then it comes to the clutch guys like you said and they are the ones who have all the SB hardware and playoff stats. So, basically I agree with your analysis, but it still boils down to the same argument as always.....what makes the best QB, stats or SB's.....
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Post by showtime on Apr 12, 2012 19:13:18 GMT -5
Honestly, I think Montana is the only one in the group you can consider over Manning. Peyton is the OC of the offense he runs and has been for the last decade. If Manning hadn't won a SB he wouldn't be in the conversation weather that is fair or not. Fortunately he has won one and been to 2 and he also has the stats to put himself in the conversation. It is Peyton's intelligence that places him at the top of my all time QB list. I would put Montana and Elway over Brady and Favre is borderline top 5 for me. Favre was a great player but longevity played a big role in how many view him compared to other great QB's who probably were more accurate and consistent passers.
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Post by gambler on Apr 12, 2012 19:20:12 GMT -5
I'd be curious why you think Montana and not Brady. Brady Has a better postseason record, took his team to the SB more years, has throws for more TDs, Has a much better TD/int ratio, will have yards on him next season.
(just curious)
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Post by burgandy on Apr 12, 2012 19:23:39 GMT -5
He doesn't fall short. At all. He is my all time great. I can see Montana, but I can't see anyone else above him. Elway is close. Marino is close, Brady is close, and Favre is close...but look at who we are talking about people. Seriously. These ARE the all time greats. With a few more thown in there. Do you think that Terry Bradshaw is better than Manning? He won 4 SBs. I would take Tarkenten over Bradshaw and he lost 4. Peyton has revolutionized the QB position. He is the standard in which all QBs coming into the league are held to. To say that Manning is not an all time great is ridiculus because there is no debate. You want to debate best "ever" ...then fine...you take you who want based on what you think is important..and I'll take Manning.
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Post by showtime on Apr 12, 2012 19:24:40 GMT -5
I'd be curious why you think Montana and not Brady. Brady Has a better postseason record, took his team to the SB more years, has throws for more TDs, Has a much better TD/int ratio, will have yards on him next season. (just curious) Yes, but the game is much different in 2012 than 1992. Teams were built much different then and focused on a solid running game where as today teams can win without a dominant runner. Picking Montana over Brady is a "gut" call and I would simply pick Cool Joe over Brady if I needed a win in the championship game
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Post by gambler on Apr 12, 2012 19:25:35 GMT -5
This sounds to me like Manning is a top-5 QB for sure, I wouldn't say #1 as I've already said Elway in another thread poll (Bronco homer). ;D Favre and Manning are very similar to me, both have big regular season stats, Peyton would've been and could still get there. They both have a SB win and a SB loss. Then it comes to the clutch guys like you said and they are the ones who have all the SB hardware and playoff stats. So, basically I agree with your analysis, but it still boils down to the same argument as always.....what makes the best QB, stats or SB's..... I agree Manning best compares to Favre. Montana and Brady are in their own tier for post season dominance. It's interesting you bring up the word "clutch" though. Because thats what Manning is worst at. Again, he has a losing playoff record despite playing with two HoF worthy WRs. It was a joke for years how Indy would wrap up their division early only to lose in the first postseason game. We'll have to see how he finishes up, but it he doesn't get real close to Favres compiler numbers there's just nothing there to put him ahead of Brett.
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Post by burgandy on Apr 12, 2012 19:26:50 GMT -5
BTW, Dan Marino's playoff record was 8-10, and "modern day" brady has done nothing more in the post season then Manning, including 2 SB loses to the inferior manning(that might have to be debated in a few years)
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Post by gambler on Apr 12, 2012 19:31:54 GMT -5
BTW, Dan Marino's playoff record was 8-10 I know...he also didn't win a superbowl. And he wasn't on my list. ;D
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Post by burgandy on Apr 12, 2012 19:32:43 GMT -5
BTW, Dan Marino's playoff record was 8-10 I know...he also didn't win a superbowl. And he wasn't on my list. ;D But he IS on my list of all time greats...
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Post by Jaysports on Apr 12, 2012 20:39:06 GMT -5
This sounds to me like Manning is a top-5 QB for sure, I wouldn't say #1 as I've already said Elway in another thread poll (Bronco homer). ;D Favre and Manning are very similar to me, both have big regular season stats, Peyton would've been and could still get there. They both have a SB win and a SB loss. Then it comes to the clutch guys like you said and they are the ones who have all the SB hardware and playoff stats. So, basically I agree with your analysis, but it still boils down to the same argument as always.....what makes the best QB, stats or SB's..... I agree Manning best compares to Favre. Montana and Brady are in their own tier for post season dominance. It's interesting you bring up the word "clutch" though. Because thats what Manning is worst at. Again, he has a losing playoff record despite playing with two HoF worthy WRs. It was a joke for years how Indy would wrap up their division early only to lose in the first postseason game. We'll have to see how he finishes up, but it he doesn't get real close to Favres compiler numbers there's just nothing there to put him ahead of Brett. I know, it's a what if.....but, I wonder if Peyton wins another championship or two if the Pats weren't so dominating in the early 2,000's? It's like the Bulls in the 90's, how many great players missed out on titles because of Jordan. Those players are knocked due to no championship, but should they when they are losing to the all-time great. Brady is the same thing, I have him rated higher than Peyton. So, does that make it a bad thing that Peyton couldn't get by them for a few years?
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Post by gambler on Apr 12, 2012 20:50:02 GMT -5
I've found that most people rate the "greatest" by what they do in the postseason.
If it were just numbers, everyone would say Favre is the best ever. His numbers are in a class by them self.
But the vast majority of folks consider Montana and Brady to both be in their top 3 (they are both in my top 3 with Favre). The reason isn't the stats they compiled (which honestly aren't anything special) but what they did in playoffs and superbowl. They both have multiple rings, they have an insane win percentage, and they are known for being clutch and not making mistakes when it counts.
To your question: Nobody remembers second best. So oddly enough, yes it makes it a bad thing Payton couldn't get by them. You have to be the best to be considered the best. If we want to say Peyton is a very good QB then nobody is going to argue. It's when you start saying Peyton is the best QB you need to back it up with cases of him being the best (not falling short to other great teams/QBs)
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Post by shamrock84 on Apr 12, 2012 20:57:30 GMT -5
My reasoning for Manning as the #1 has less to do with stats (though they are nice) and playoff/SB wins than what he did for his team. As showtime said he was basically the OC for the Colts. He called/changed plays and basically ran that offense. No other QB in recent history has done what he has. There were some guys in the past (Jim Kelly springs to mind) but none of the guys we're talking about here.
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Post by gambler on Apr 12, 2012 21:07:13 GMT -5
But why should "best OC" even play into this? We are looking for the best QB. Who played the position the best. Maybe I'm just being hard headed, but if we have 2 QBs (A & B), and A has better numbers in the regular season and post season, I'm not going to chose B because I liked the quirky things he did in the huddle better.
Consider a 1 mile race. If one man beats the other to the finish line by a minute but the slower one danced and flung skittles from his pockets along the way, I won't say the slower man is the best runner even if I enjoyed the dancing. The "best" one is the one that wins.
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Post by Jaysports on Apr 12, 2012 21:12:29 GMT -5
Should this carry any weight as part of the overall consideration of this debate?
Peyton Manning out for the season and the team wins 1 game (or was it 2). Tom Brady is out for the season and the team still goes 11-5 with Cassel of all QB's (yikes) Brett Favre is out for the season, oh wait....never except for the end of his career in MN.
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